LOL - Nobody knits to create a 'crappy sweater'! (although, I've had a few disasters over the years :-)

But you're right, knitting is something that can be picked up and put down fairly easily, and that can be done while you're doing something else - I often knit while listening to the news. Perhaps it is closer to casual games than I originally acknowledged. Would you say that other crafts are also like casual games? Woodcarving, for example, or painting could also serve similar functions.

As to the reporter's question - I wonder whether it's true that there are more women than men playing these types of games. The original study looked only at online games. Maybe men in an online (social) situation feel a greater need to compete than women, but react differently when they're playing offline games. I know my husband plays a lot of these types of games, in fact a lot more than I do! Obviously, we need another study!

Last year I did a study with a graduate class, where we looked at women gamers (adults), their play habits and interests. There was no one consistent type of play,which is what you'd expect-- it's pretty silly to lump all women (or all men) together into one style of gameplay or one genre interest, but of course some larger groupings did occur.

For those women indicating that they played games moderately (our word for it, to distinguish them from the heavy/power gamers), games were about control-- and in some instances, about control of their time. Like Radway found in relation to romance novel readers, some of our game players used games in specific ways-- they could choose which game to play, when to play, how long to play, etc. They enjoyed the challenge (so I wouldn't think it really corresponded to doodling) and wanted to game *on their own terms* is the way that I read the data.

So I would say that there are game players looking to play games *casually* and mindlessly, and women may be a good chunk of this group, but I don't think this explains all of their play behavior, at least at the moderate end of play. (does this make sense at all? I don't think my coffee has kicked in yet)

There are definitely some women game players out there (in addition to the power gamers) that enjoy focusing very closely on games, for various reasons, and are invested in the outcome, but they seem to set the terms for what is a *good* outcome, which could be related to mastery, relaxation, fun, or mental challenge, among others.

that's my 2 cents, anyway. :)

Sylvie> Nobody knits to create a 'crappy sweater'!

You're definitely right. However, the sweater itself doesn't seem to be the primary purpose of the knitting. Rather, the knitting action is, and if a nice sweater comes of it, it's just a bonus. This is not always true; some people probably knit very seriously. Many women knit together as well, in knitting stores, as a kind of social activity, something like a bowling league or a bridge club. I wonder what relationship that activity has with social games like There.

Sylvie> Would you say that other crafts are also like casual games? Woodcarving, for example, or painting could also serve similar functions.

I suppose if I'm to maintain my argument, I'd have to say this: craft activities whose primary purpose is production rather than sale might be similar to casual games. Paintings and woodcarvings might be like sweaters, but craftspeople typically want to display them, right? Whereas kids craft activities (in which you throw away the end product when your kids aren't looking, lol) are much more about production. I wonder if I'm saying that the product of casual games has no use value?

Sylvie> Obviously, we need another study!

Right, good point. I'll think more about this. AOL may well be telling us what they want us to hear.

Mia> they seem to set the terms for what is a *good* outcome, which could be related to mastery, relaxation, fun, or mental challenge, among others.

This is a fantastic insight. Do you have any material from your study relative to this point? I'm working on an article that would benefit tremendously from it.

Also, I always hear that casual gamers do not self-identify as gamers. Did you find this to be true in your study?

Ian,

We are still finishing up the paper- it is in draft form at the moment unfortunately. Bug me about it at GDC- i should have more by then in shareable form.

And yes- the moderate/casuals did NOT see themselves as gamers at all. Some of them did not even think that they 'played video games.' And they definitely didn't see 'game culture' as inclusive of them in any way (not that I think they cared, but another interesting point).

Mia -- cool. I'll look forward to hearing more at GDC.

I think the fact that casual gamers don't call themselves gamers offers further evidence that casual games are doing something other than mere entertainment.

(Wow, it would be nice if the "remember info" checkbox actually worked. I'll have to look into that)

Ian>I wonder if I'm saying that the product of casual games has no use value?

Hm, Ian, are you saying that other types of games actually produce something of value? Unless it's some sort of "infotainment" (god, i hate that word) game, I'm not sure ANY game has value beyond the intrinsic one of amusing people. What have I learned from playing hours of RPG except that it's important to save frequently and you should always get a good night's sleep before a big battle?

Ian> Whereas kids craft activities (in which you throw away the end product when your kids aren't looking, lol) are much more about production.

Wait a minute, are you comparing knitting (a female-gendered craft) to a kid's craft? But something that is gender-neutral (painting) or male-gendered (carving) is about displaying your end product? Can you see the inherent sexism in that?

Any craftwork, whether it be typically associated with women, or with men, or is gender-neutral, can be practiced for the mere pleasure of it, and the end result can be quite good or quite crappy. I've seen plenty of crappy paintings in my life, and I'm sure that the painter derived hours of pleasure from it. That doesn't mean I want to display it on my wall. Or it can be practiced more seriously to produce something good enough to display at a craft show.

Your misunderstanding of knitting may come from the fact that nobody displays a sweater on their wall. But we still display our end product proudly by wearing it. It's just a more discrete way of showing it off than putting it up on a wall or a tablet.

Sylvie -- Yeah, you may have me by the hair here. I don't know that I'm equipped to talk about the gendered-ness of one craft compared to another. At the same time, it's always been my impression that knitting in its contemporary incarnation (that is, given the existence of the Gap) has a primary function as either (a) social activity (in the knitting store) or (b) as a transitional activity (something you do to occupy or organize your mind, to "take the edge off" in a certain way). You're probably right that I'm oversimplifying sweater production compared to table production. Hmm, I may be ready to admit that casual games are more like craft in general... but craft as avocation, right, not craft as techne.

(aside 2: I'm just a man trying to understand why, supposedly, women are playing casual games more than men. Any smack of sexism I'll hope you'll relegate to the medium rather than the message.)

About the use value thing: I probably didn't make this clear. I think what I mean is that the function of casual games seem to have more exchange or interplay with the real world than console games. ... of course, if I follow this to its logical conclusion, then it seems to mean rather the opposite of what I said first, namely that casual games have more use value than other kinds of games.

Damn blogs ;)